PR
Paul R
Active since Sep 2024
12
Reviews
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Industries
Reviews
12 reviews3 months ago
I spoke to an Angel today. So refreshing
Hello Peter, my name is Paul. From the outset, I would like to state that Bonitas is the worst medical aid out there, and as a medical aid, I give them -5 stars. Today's 5 star review is actually in reference to a customer care or claims department consultant named Irene. After getting another generic email from a no reply email address rejecting a claim, I decided to call and plead again with Bonitas to apply their minds to each claim and not just spew out some or other red tape that seems impossible to meet. Well Well, an angel answered my call! Irene is the most lovely person who for the first time treated me like a human being and address each query with such elegance and excellence. I have dealt with 2 other consultants and two team leaders, all of whom were absolutely useless, unreliable, unresponsive and in fact out right rude, which brought out the worst in me. Felt like I was being pranked by Wackhead Simpson from back in the day, literally screaming and shouting at such incompetence. After dealing with Irene today, I broke down in tears, happy tears for being heard and treated the way one would hope for. I vote Irene for Team Leader, to lead and set the example for other team leaders and consultants. Bonitas, be careful, treat Irene well because she is actually way out of your league.
56 replies
3 months ago
Bonitas Motto: We put your life at risk, so you dont have to
Hello Peter, My name is Paul, and I would like to share with you and others my dreadful experience this morning with Bonitas and their useless consultant named Lerato. I need to provide some background first for context. Any current Bonitas member will know that around November 2025, Bonitas did some restructuring if most of their plans and sent out a number of communications about this. This restructure was to kick in from 1 January 2026. So now with that background, I went this morning to Lancet for blood tests, as I WAS supposed to have treatment for my STAGE 4 CANCER, but needles to say, my tests were not done. My existing (prior to restructuring) membership number came up as terminated. I could not understand why and immediately decided to call Bonitas to get to the bottom of this. My premiums for Jan 2026 was paid but seemingly im not getting the service or any benefits at this stage. In any event, after waiting on the line for 6 minutes, with immense frustration with their voice prompt as i had to enter my membership number, but its terminated though and was not working... So a consultant named Lerato picked up the call. When I explained the situation to Lerato, she contradicted herself. She stated that my prior membership number is for life, and then after some back and forth Lerato gives the lancet gentleman a new membership number which lancet could not pick up. Lerato had no idea what to do and escalated the matter to her team leader. I emphatically stated to Lerato that it is unacceptable that because of their incompetence and lack of planning that I now cannot do my blood tests and and my STAGE 4 CANCER TREATMENT due tomorrow. Lerato could not even advise me how long it will take to resolve this matter. Anyone going through cancer treatments will understand how strict our treatment regiments are. Seems Bonitas, a medical aid, doesnt know this fact. I AM LIVID AND DISGUSTED THAT 2026 HAS TO START THIS WAY BECAUSE OF BONITAS. Please take note of the following google search: "What impact does severe stress have on cancer patients: Google Response: Severe stress in cancer patients can worsen prognosis by releasing hormones (like cortisol, adrenaline) that fuel tumor growth, promote spread (metastasis), and weaken the immune system's ability to fight cancer, leading to physical symptoms like fatigue, inflammation, digestive issues, and mental health challenges like anxiety and depression, while also impacting treatment adherence and overall quality of life. " So in short, Bonitas as putting my life at risk and they dont care, as long as they get their premiums paid they dont worry about the service. Also an FYI, I have had zero communication from Bonitas regarding my new plan and the new membership number. DISGUSTED, BUT IM TRAPPED BECAUSE I CANNOT AFFORD PAYING FOR MY TREATMENT FOR THREE MONTHS IF I CHOSE TO MOVE TO ANOTHER MEDICAL AID. IM IN A DEATH TRAP APPARENTLY.
280 replies
8 months ago
Despicable Company taking advantage
I would like to start off by stating that this company is despicable. Their underhanded techniques to secure jobs is daylight *******. I requested a quote from Jan at MC Maintenance three weeks before moving into my new residence. I had heard of this company through top Managing Agents that use this company as one of their preferred contractors. I needed to put up a fence/enclosure for my pets before moving in. One would think three weeks is enough time for this small project... The first red flag - They did not send me a quote for the work that i requested until the week i was moving in. I had to follow up a number of times for the quote and confirmation that the job can be done before I moved in. Once I received the quote, I immediately approved it, paid the deposit and asked them to urgently have this done by the time i move in. ( I was told by Jan that the project would take 2 days). The second red flag - After 2 days on site, the job was on 50% done. At this point I already feel deceived because the job was taking longer than agreed upon. The third red flag - After 2 days on site, I was sent a quote for an item that I already thought was included in the initial quote. At this point im thinking this company ****/deceived/mislead me on duration and costs just to get the job awarded to them. The fourth red flag - The owner of the business Jan did not call for more than a week despite several requests to his staff and administrators. Jan could not take the time to explain the additional quote or the extended duration of the project. The fifth red flag - As a justifiably upset client, the owner could not take 2 minutes to call me and then when i express my frustration, the owner, JAN, had his guys removed from site without having completed the job, despite being paid for the original quote and the additional quote. While legal action is being taken from my side, people need to be warned about this company and its unjust business practices. Trustees / Home Owners / Directors take caution before having dealings with this company.
0 replies
9 months ago
Stoned or Tired Ticketing Consultant Chasing Clients Away
Hello Peter, My name is Paul. I would like to start this review or complaint by stating that this applies to the Cresta branch of Nedbank. I sincerely hope other branches are not modelled after this one at Cresta. Today was a big day for me. I excitedly and emotionally woke up today to go to Nedbank and pay off the vehicle that I purchased for my mom before she passed earlier on this year. Well... this is what happened... I walked up to the entrance of the Nedbank. I waited a minute or two before being greeted by a gentleman who had no name tag and I'm not even sure if he had eyes given how far they were opened. Perhaps the poor ticketing consultant was tired from working all weekend long... The man asked why I was there, I indicated I wanted a settlement letter for my vehicle. He then said "you can get it on the App". I said, "I dont have the App as I don't have my primary bank with Nedbank." The man then said, "Then you can just phone Nedbank for assistance". I paused and said, "So no one here is going to help me?". The man then supposedly looked at me with a mouth full of teeth and said nothing. So I walked away... When it comes to first impressions, walking to the entrance of Nedbank was like walking to my nearest 420 Cafe`. In fact, they probably have better customer service. So Nedbank does not want my settlement money, and I guess the discussion about investment of family inheritance is also off the table. Thank you NEDBANK for F*#king up this day for me!
0 replies
10 months ago
Petty and Maliciously Compliant
Hello Peter, my name is Paul. Once again, I have to resort to this forum to resolve my issue. I have an existing Debit Order Dispute on my account. However, the debit order has gone off the past two months as the creditor in question has changed the amount debited. Thus I have to contact FNB each time the debit order goes off to reverse the debit order. Last month consultant named Lungelolakhe assisted me like a star. After I had sent a total of two messages, this consultant already and immediately reversed the debit order. What a pleasure. This morning however, the debit order went off again, and I thought I thought I could easily reverse the charge. Oh Gosh, I was very wrong. This morning I sent my request and was directed to a person named MIKATEKO. Im not sure who trained this consultant. This consultant was being MALICIOUSLY COMPLIANT. There must have been about 6 back and forth messages regarding the format of the date of the debit order. Then advised me it takes 24 hours to reverse debit orders. When I asked for a manager, I was brushed off. How is it that I can have such different experiences when dealing with the same department. Im not sure if training is the issue here or if the consultant this morning woke up on the wrong side of the bed. And the worst part, I recently signed up to be a private client. I have received no info pack on what benefits there are. I have not been informed of who my dedicated banker is and with service like I received this morning, it seems being a Private Banker is a **** for FNB to get more revenue without doing anything in return. Pull up your socks FNB!
56 replies
14 months ago
**** Customer Service, its just Smoke and Mirrors
Good day Peter, my name is Paul. I would like to firstly state that I give Hello Peter a 5 Star Review! It is unfortunate that the only means of effective communication between parties, only happens through your public forum and intervention. Last week Monday I posted a substantive review of how FNB does not follow Banking Regulations. I promptly received a call on Tuesday morning from a service agent who said a full investigation is going to be launched and that FNB will urgently accommodate me. On Wednesday afternoon I received a call from an FNB consultant, who was only tasked with putting the stop or hold on the debit order in question. I followed the prompts and then I believed the matter was addressed. All I was then hoping for was some proper feedback from FNB. But no, since then, I have received two seemingly auto responses, apologizing for the inconvenience caused. I thought I would take the win. Well Well Well, it does not end there. On Saturday night at midnight, the 1st of March 2025, the debit order that was supposed stopped WENT OFF MY ACCOUNT. When I noticed on Sunday that the debit order went off, I immediately went onto my FNB App to ask the chat service agents to immediately reverse the debit order. The agent I dealt with was named Tyrese from the Retail Debit Order Disputes Dept. Tyrese was rude, failed to acknowledge the history of the matter and that I had been under the belief that the debit order was stopped. Tyrese then said he cannot reverse the debit order unless I pay the R48 charge. I refused out of principle to agree to the charges. Why should I have to pay FNB to fix the problem they caused? So this morning early, Monday 03 March 2025, I decided to give FNB a chance and email all these unknown unreachable email addresses from the so called "apology emails", for them to urgently contact me... Not a single phone call! Well the fight continues and I am at my wits end, while feeling so trapped and held hostage by my bank.
71 replies
14 months ago
Its easy to get caught in the Trap, impossible to get out!
Hello Peter, my name is Paul, A kind note to all readers and those concerned, this is quite a lengthy review/complaint against multiple parties. I find it necessary to be fully transparent and detailed to correctly encapsulate the situation on a whole. I do however encourage concerned readers to read this “article” or review fully. From the outset, I would like to flag the “ending” of this story first as it appears at the end of the document referred to below. “Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits.” I would like to highlight my circumstances and the “Distress” that this matter has caused me. I have stage 4 Colo****** Cancer and have just completed my 12th round of Chemotherapy last week thursday. One of the many side effects of my therapy and the type of cancer if have, is that I have discomfort sitting in queues, and on this particular occasion, I was dealing with quite an “upset tummy”. Furthermore, adding to the emotional state I find myself in, my dear mother passed away on the 12th of January 2025. With that in the back of your mind, lets get into matter at hand. My mother signed up / entered into an agreement with Web Africa to provide internet services to her place of residence. In August 2024 I moved in with my mother to assist in taking care of me etc. It was my contribution to my mother to pay the internet service provider. After my mother’s passing, knowing how reliant I am on internet, I swiftly moved over the debit order from my mother’s banking details to mine. I would like to add how easy this process was. Unfortunately, I was evicted from our place of residence, my mom’s house, at the end of January 2025. At this point the debit order for Web Africa had already gone off my account. With so much going on at the time, I cut my losses and parted ways with the R900 debit order for which I had absolutely no use of. After all the funeral expenses, medical expenses, moving expenses (deposits and the like), R900 is no chump change. During the second week of February 2025, my brother (the tech guru in the family) and I have a three-way telephone call with a call centre agent from Web Africa. When we explained the situation to the consultant, she indicated that she could not assist us, and that all queries of this nature must be addressed through their website. We were told that there is absolutely no one for us to talk to verbally about the matter and that the only people we were privileged to speak to are sales agents. Despite our plea, even going as far as raising POPI concerns with such a service provider dealing with us when we are not the account holder. This is why I requested to speak to a manager, to have a more in-depth conversation, we were denied and merely asked to go to the website. My brother then proceeds to go onto the website for Web Africa, and as soon as he types out a message, on what seems to be a chat bot and not an actual consultant, the system picks up his own personal profile and there are no prompts directing him to query or cancel someone else’s service etc. At this point my frustrations are really mounting during this deeply emotional and sickly time in my life. How on earth do I cancel this debit order or sort out this situation when the chat bot doesn’t work and the sales agents cant assist??? I had a Plan B in mind though to deal with the situation. I had planned to do my chemotherapy the next week (last week in present context) and then go see FNB to discuss the matter. Then today, Monday the 24th of January 2025 I went to Clear Water FNB. I am greeted by the ticketing person who asks what I am there for. I explained immediately that I want to cancel a debit order. The lady then indicated that I can lodge a dispute on a debit order over the online system, but that they cannot cancel the debit order, this would need to be done with the service provider (Web Africa). I was not entirely satisfied with this response and asked to see the branch manager. Lungi was her name. I explained the above situation to Lungi and even went as far as discussing principles of contractual law. For example, such an agreement in question will terminate upon death of the person who entered into the agreement. So even though I initially agreed to the debit order, there is no legal basis for me to be bound by or held liable for the services entered into by my mother and Web Africa. Lungi did her very best to absolve FNB from any part of this transaction. I was told to take this up with Web Africa, and that all they can do is assist me with lodging a dispute on the debit order, only after it goes off, which may or may not lead to a reversal, and that the duration of this process “Depends”. At this point I am really frustrated with the branch manager, who is in essence telling me that whether the agreement is valid or not, legal or not, that they cannot really do much. After I emphasized the *******ity of the matter (Theft, ***** or *******ion), Lungi passively indicated that I can go to the Police. Needless to say I stormed out of the bank and went straight to the police station. Fairlands Police Station was busy and after about an hour of waiting, I got to speak to a constable. I explained the whole story to the constable. The constable advised me that this is not a police / ******** matter and that all I can do is again try to take this up myself with Web Africa or to approach the Small Claims Court to issue a letter of demand. Now I am furious to say the least! The Bank can’t help me, Web Africa can’t help me, The Police cannot help me. So here I am, after doing hours of research, to bring you some objective legal reasoning to the situation. In South Africa, ***** is defined as the ******** and intentional misrepresentation of facts that causes or may cause harm to another person. It's a common law crime that includes economic crimes and dishonest acts. Elements of ***** • Misrepresentation: The deliberate distortion or falsification of the truth • ********ness: The act is against the law • Actual or potential prejudice: The act causes or may cause harm to another person • Intention: The act is done intentionally If I apply the above to my situation, would it not be reasonable for me to come to the conclusion that Web Africa is committing ***** by misleading the bank into facilitating payments that are ******** (as there is no valid agreement in place) that is causing me economic and emotional harm, and after Web Africa was technically informed, the act also seems to be intentional. Now I’m wondering if this falls within the definition of ***** and if ***** is a crime, why did the constable at the Fairlands Police Station tell me they cannot help me with this matter. In South Africa, theft is the ******** and intentional taking of another person's property without their permission. So, if the Police cannot help me with *****, perhaps the simple definition of Theft would apply. Web Africa is taking my money without my permission. Again I was left wondering why the police would not help me in a matter that may be considered theft. So I took it a step further: Can a Juristic Person or Legal Entity be held ********ly liable? Yes, a legal entity can be held ********ly liable in South Africa. This is possible under Section 332 of the ******** Procedure Act 51 of 1977. Again, I am left with a loss for words. The police cannot help me with ***** or Theft Charges, even though according to the above section, one can lay ******** charges against a Juristic Person. Then let’s take it even further, as far as FNB is concerned. https://www.derebus.org.za/doctrine-of-common-purpose-can-the-actions-of-one-accomplice-be-attribute-to-others/ “In Namane the court held that each of them is responsible for the acts committed by the others, either foreseeing the possibility that the others might perform an act in order to further their common purpose, and ‘was indifferent to such acts and their consequences’. The court indicated that the other party foresaw the possibility that the one party might commit a crime and he who did not do the actual offence, reconciled himself with that possibility, making him as liable as the one who committed the offence.” The above article leads me to think/conclude that perhaps FNB is also liable to an offence after I have alerted them to this matter, and they turned a blind eye. Regardless of my ******** aspect/allegation, my research further lead me to the below Bulletin from the Ombudsman for Banking Services. A link appears below. I found it apt to take extracts from the bulletin to further highlight how FNB clearly disregards certain aspect of the Code of Banking Practice and PASA. https://www.obssa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Bulletin-11-Debit-Orders-Final-30.01.2018.pdf • Introduction Debit order payment facilities are used by the majority of banking customers as they serve as a very convenient and useful manner of paying accounts. The vast majority of bank customers use the debit order facility daily and rarely encounter any problems. It is however when a debit order is disputed that we note from complaints received by our office that bank customers sometimes encounter problems with their bank regarding the reversal or cancellation of a debit order. Based on the complaints we receive, it has become apparent that certain bank staff members are unaware of the process to follow when dealing with a disputed debit order. This could create the impression that bank customers have no control over their accounts and are left at the mercy of ************ companies that abuse the debit order facility. We have dealt with matters where bank customers were merely told to take the matter up with the company debiting their account even though the customer has already attempted to do so. The reason why the customer eventually turned to the bank is because they either could not track down the company making the debit, or the company unjustifiably refused to assist. Therefore, it is important to educate bank customers about the debit order dispute process and to make banks aware of the types of complaints received and our approach to them. The Code of Banking Practice and the PASA (Payments Association of South Africa) rules indicate how the bank should handle a debit order dispute. This Bulletin considers the application of the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules in resolving debit order complaints. The Code of Banking Practice encourages a customer to report a debit order dispute to his bank and the bank to reverse an unauthorised debit order. In doing so, the bank is obliged to handle the debit order dispute in accordance with the applicable PASA rules. (I would to add my commentary to the above… Why is it best practice and encouraged for me to report my dispute to FNB when I am basically turned away to absolve the bank from issues that don’t concern them) • 9.4.3 Stopping a debit order You must cancel a debit order by providing written or other appropriate notification to the third party whom you authorised to make the deductions. You may also stop a future debit order payment for a given period by requesting that your bank places a stop payment instruction on your account. Your bank will advise you regarding the period for which the stop payment instruction will be effective, and how it operates. You may also be charged a fee for implementing this stop payment instruction. Commentary from Paul: I find it impossible to cancel with the service provider. Just as important, this document indicates that the bank should have the ability to place a stop payment instruction on the debit order. Why did THE branch manager not advise me of this option. • 9.4.4 Disputes about debit orders You should report any disputes relating to your debit order to your bank. In particular, you should raise a dispute when the third party: • has withdrawn an amount before the date specified in your instruction; • continues to collect a debit order that you have cancelled or is subject to a stop payment instruction; • debits your account for an incorrect amount; • has collected a debit order you did not authorise or in a manner you did not authorise (e.g. split the collection amount or consolidate several debit orders); or • has collected a debit order that is not consistent with your instruction. Your bank may request you to provide proof of identity and to confirm the dispute. If your bank determines that the debit order is not authorised by yourself, your bank may reverse the transaction and any related fees. Commentary from Paul: FNB/the branch manager was not helpful at all in adhering to PASA guidelines that encourage me to report this to the bank, when they are merely the middleman that facilitates payments, whether legal or *******, valid or invalid. • All major South African banks are members of PASA and have agreed to comply with the PASA rules and procedures regarding the processing of debit orders and dealing with debit order disputes. Commentary from Paul: Either I am completely misaligned with my understanding, OR FNB need to train their Branch Managers to be more aligned with PASA and the Ombudsman’s expectations in these situations. • In evaluating the merits of a debit order complaint, the OBS will refer to the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules to establish if the bank processed the debit order correctly and if it handled a disputed debit order appropriately. Commentary from Paul: In my view, the branch manager failed to handle my dispute appropriately and also failed to advise me that it is possible to place a stop order instruction. • 6. The customer’s rights 6.1 Stop payment instruction A customer can give their bank (the homing bank) a written stop payment instruction to prevent a debit order for a specific amount being processed on the account. Commentary from Paul: If this document claims it is my right to give my bank an instruction to stop payment, then clearly my rights were infringed upon by FNB / the branch manager when failing to advise me of this right or even facilitating this option. • A stop payment instruction only remains on the bank’s system for a limited period (three to six months depending on the bank). After this period, a user may again attempt to debit the account and it will be processed. It is important that clients check their statements regularly for *****ulent debits Commentary from Paul: WOW, perhaps FNB did not know this. Three months would have given me more than enough time to navigate this endless maze with Web Africa. • 6.2 Disputing a debit order A customer has the right to instruct his or her bank to reverse a disputed EFT and NAEDO debit order (AEDO only in the case of *****) if the customer declares in writing that: 1. He did not authorise the debit order in question. 2. The deduction of the debit order was in contravention with his authority. 3. He instructed the user to cancel the debit order authority. 4. He stopped payment of the debit order instruction. Commentary from Paul: FNB / The branch manager clearly do not believe I have this right even though everything above was explained to Lungi. • When receiving any complaint on this issue the OBS will expect the bank to have app**** the procedures as mentioned above. Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits. Commentary from Paul: I understand we all have our stories and challenges in life, but this process with Web Africa, FNB and the Fairlands Police Station has left me feeling alone, abandoned and helpless during the most challenging time of my life. Where is Justice? Where is Compassion? Where does one read up on all the above, easily found on the internet, yet the institutions themselves disregard the “safeguards” put in place to keep us consumers/citizens at bay?
0 replies
14 months ago
Fairlands Police Constable Claims there is no Crime, I beg to differ.
Hello Peter, my name is Paul, A kind note to all readers and those concerned, this is quite a lengthy review/complaint against multiple parties. I find it necessary to be fully transparent and detailed to correctly encapsulate the situation on a whole. I do however encourage concerned readers to read this “article” or review fully. From the outset, I would like to flag the “ending” of this story first as it appears at the end of the document referred to below. “Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits.” I would like to highlight my circumstances and the “Distress” that this matter has caused me. I have stage 4 Colo****** Cancer and have just completed my 12th round of Chemotherapy last week thursday. One of the many side effects of my therapy and the type of cancer if have, is that I have discomfort sitting in queues, and on this particular occasion, I was dealing with quite an “upset tummy”. Furthermore, adding to the emotional state I find myself in, my dear mother passed away on the 12th of January 2025. With that in the back of your mind, lets get into matter at hand. My mother signed up / entered into an agreement with Web Africa to provide internet services to her place of residence. In August 2024 I moved in with my mother to assist in taking care of me etc. It was my contribution to my mother to pay the internet service provider. After my mother’s passing, knowing how reliant I am on internet, I swiftly moved over the debit order from my mother’s banking details to mine. I would like to add how easy this process was. Unfortunately, I was evicted from our place of residence, my mom’s house, at the end of January 2025. At this point the debit order for Web Africa had already gone off my account. With so much going on at the time, I cut my losses and parted ways with the R900 debit order for which I had absolutely no use of. After all the funeral expenses, medical expenses, moving expenses (deposits and the like), R900 is no chump change. During the second week of February 2025, my brother (the tech guru in the family) and I have a three-way telephone call with a call centre agent from Web Africa. When we explained the situation to the consultant, she indicated that she could not assist us, and that all queries of this nature must be addressed through their website. We were told that there is absolutely no one for us to talk to verbally about the matter and that the only people we were privileged to speak to are sales agents. Despite our plea, even going as far as raising POPI concerns with such a service provider dealing with us when we are not the account holder. This is why I requested to speak to a manager, to have a more in-depth conversation, we were denied and merely asked to go to the website. My brother then proceeds to go onto the website for Web Africa, and as soon as he types out a message, on what seems to be a chat bot and not an actual consultant, the system picks up his own personal profile and there are no prompts directing him to query or cancel someone else’s service etc. At this point my frustrations are really mounting during this deeply emotional and sickly time in my life. How on earth do I cancel this debit order or sort out this situation when the chat bot doesn’t work and the sales agents cant assist??? I had a Plan B in mind though to deal with the situation. I had planned to do my chemotherapy the next week (last week in present context) and then go see FNB to discuss the matter. Then today, Monday the 24th of January 2025 I went to Clear Water FNB. I am greeted by the ticketing person who asks what I am there for. I explained immediately that I want to cancel a debit order. The lady then indicated that I can lodge a dispute on a debit order over the online system, but that they cannot cancel the debit order, this would need to be done with the service provider (Web Africa). I was not entirely satisfied with this response and asked to see the branch manager. Lungi was her name. I explained the above situation to Lungi and even went as far as discussing principles of contractual law. For example, such an agreement in question will terminate upon death of the person who entered into the agreement. So even though I initially agreed to the debit order, there is no legal basis for me to be bound by or held liable for the services entered into by my mother and Web Africa. Lungi did her very best to absolve FNB from any part of this transaction. I was told to take this up with Web Africa, and that all they can do is assist me with lodging a dispute on the debit order, only after it goes off, which may or may not lead to a reversal, and that the duration of this process “Depends”. At this point I am really frustrated with the branch manager, who is in essence telling me that whether the agreement is valid or not, legal or not, that they cannot really do much. After I emphasized the *******ity of the matter (Theft, ***** or *******ion), Lungi passively indicated that I can go to the Police. Needless to say I stormed out of the bank and went straight to the police station. Fairlands Police Station was busy and after about an hour of waiting, I got to speak to a constable. I explained the whole story to the constable. The constable advised me that this is not a police / ******** matter and that all I can do is again try to take this up myself with Web Africa or to approach the Small Claims Court to issue a letter of demand. Now I am furious to say the least! The Bank can’t help me, Web Africa can’t help me, The Police cannot help me. So here I am, after doing hours of research, to bring you some objective legal reasoning to the situation. In South Africa, ***** is defined as the ******** and intentional misrepresentation of facts that causes or may cause harm to another person. It's a common law crime that includes economic crimes and dishonest acts. Elements of ***** • Misrepresentation: The deliberate distortion or falsification of the truth • ********ness: The act is against the law • Actual or potential prejudice: The act causes or may cause harm to another person • Intention: The act is done intentionally If I apply the above to my situation, would it not be reasonable for me to come to the conclusion that Web Africa is committing ***** by misleading the bank into facilitating payments that are ******** (as there is no valid agreement in place) that is causing me economic and emotional harm, and after Web Africa was technically informed, the act also seems to be intentional. Now I’m wondering if this falls within the definition of ***** and if ***** is a crime, why did the constable at the Fairlands Police Station tell me they cannot help me with this matter. In South Africa, theft is the ******** and intentional taking of another person's property without their permission. So, if the Police cannot help me with *****, perhaps the simple definition of Theft would apply. Web Africa is taking my money without my permission. Again I was left wondering why the police would not help me in a matter that may be considered theft. So I took it a step further: Can a Juristic Person or Legal Entity be held ********ly liable? Yes, a legal entity can be held ********ly liable in South Africa. This is possible under Section 332 of the ******** Procedure Act 51 of 1977. Again, I am left with a loss for words. The police cannot help me with ***** or Theft Charges, even though according to the above section, one can lay ******** charges against a Juristic Person. Then let’s take it even further, as far as FNB is concerned. https://www.derebus.org.za/doctrine-of-common-purpose-can-the-actions-of-one-accomplice-be-attribute-to-others/ “In Namane the court held that each of them is responsible for the acts committed by the others, either foreseeing the possibility that the others might perform an act in order to further their common purpose, and ‘was indifferent to such acts and their consequences’. The court indicated that the other party foresaw the possibility that the one party might commit a crime and he who did not do the actual offence, reconciled himself with that possibility, making him as liable as the one who committed the offence.” The above article leads me to think/conclude that perhaps FNB is also liable to an offence after I have alerted them to this matter, and they turned a blind eye. Regardless of my ******** aspect/allegation, my research further lead me to the below Bulletin from the Ombudsman for Banking Services. A link appears below. I found it apt to take extracts from the bulletin to further highlight how FNB clearly disregards certain aspect of the Code of Banking Practice and PASA. https://www.obssa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Bulletin-11-Debit-Orders-Final-30.01.2018.pdf • Introduction Debit order payment facilities are used by the majority of banking customers as they serve as a very convenient and useful manner of paying accounts. The vast majority of bank customers use the debit order facility daily and rarely encounter any problems. It is however when a debit order is disputed that we note from complaints received by our office that bank customers sometimes encounter problems with their bank regarding the reversal or cancellation of a debit order. Based on the complaints we receive, it has become apparent that certain bank staff members are unaware of the process to follow when dealing with a disputed debit order. This could create the impression that bank customers have no control over their accounts and are left at the mercy of ************ companies that abuse the debit order facility. We have dealt with matters where bank customers were merely told to take the matter up with the company debiting their account even though the customer has already attempted to do so. The reason why the customer eventually turned to the bank is because they either could not track down the company making the debit, or the company unjustifiably refused to assist. Therefore, it is important to educate bank customers about the debit order dispute process and to make banks aware of the types of complaints received and our approach to them. The Code of Banking Practice and the PASA (Payments Association of South Africa) rules indicate how the bank should handle a debit order dispute. This Bulletin considers the application of the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules in resolving debit order complaints. The Code of Banking Practice encourages a customer to report a debit order dispute to his bank and the bank to reverse an unauthorised debit order. In doing so, the bank is obliged to handle the debit order dispute in accordance with the applicable PASA rules. (I would to add my commentary to the above… Why is it best practice and encouraged for me to report my dispute to FNB when I am basically turned away to absolve the bank from issues that don’t concern them) • 9.4.3 Stopping a debit order You must cancel a debit order by providing written or other appropriate notification to the third party whom you authorised to make the deductions. You may also stop a future debit order payment for a given period by requesting that your bank places a stop payment instruction on your account. Your bank will advise you regarding the period for which the stop payment instruction will be effective, and how it operates. You may also be charged a fee for implementing this stop payment instruction. Commentary from Paul: I find it impossible to cancel with the service provider. Just as important, this document indicates that the bank should have the ability to place a stop payment instruction on the debit order. Why did THE branch manager not advise me of this option. • 9.4.4 Disputes about debit orders You should report any disputes relating to your debit order to your bank. In particular, you should raise a dispute when the third party: • has withdrawn an amount before the date specified in your instruction; • continues to collect a debit order that you have cancelled or is subject to a stop payment instruction; • debits your account for an incorrect amount; • has collected a debit order you did not authorise or in a manner you did not authorise (e.g. split the collection amount or consolidate several debit orders); or • has collected a debit order that is not consistent with your instruction. Your bank may request you to provide proof of identity and to confirm the dispute. If your bank determines that the debit order is not authorised by yourself, your bank may reverse the transaction and any related fees. Commentary from Paul: FNB/the branch manager was not helpful at all in adhering to PASA guidelines that encourage me to report this to the bank, when they are merely the middleman that facilitates payments, whether legal or *******, valid or invalid. • All major South African banks are members of PASA and have agreed to comply with the PASA rules and procedures regarding the processing of debit orders and dealing with debit order disputes. Commentary from Paul: Either I am completely misaligned with my understanding, OR FNB need to train their Branch Managers to be more aligned with PASA and the Ombudsman’s expectations in these situations. • In evaluating the merits of a debit order complaint, the OBS will refer to the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules to establish if the bank processed the debit order correctly and if it handled a disputed debit order appropriately. Commentary from Paul: In my view, the branch manager failed to handle my dispute appropriately and also failed to advise me that it is possible to place a stop order instruction. • 6. The customer’s rights 6.1 Stop payment instruction A customer can give their bank (the homing bank) a written stop payment instruction to prevent a debit order for a specific amount being processed on the account. Commentary from Paul: If this document claims it is my right to give my bank an instruction to stop payment, then clearly my rights were infringed upon by FNB / the branch manager when failing to advise me of this right or even facilitating this option. • A stop payment instruction only remains on the bank’s system for a limited period (three to six months depending on the bank). After this period, a user may again attempt to debit the account and it will be processed. It is important that clients check their statements regularly for *****ulent debits Commentary from Paul: WOW, perhaps FNB did not know this. Three months would have given me more than enough time to navigate this endless maze with Web Africa. • 6.2 Disputing a debit order A customer has the right to instruct his or her bank to reverse a disputed EFT and NAEDO debit order (AEDO only in the case of *****) if the customer declares in writing that: 1. He did not authorise the debit order in question. 2. The deduction of the debit order was in contravention with his authority. 3. He instructed the user to cancel the debit order authority. 4. He stopped payment of the debit order instruction. Commentary from Paul: FNB / The branch manager clearly do not believe I have this right even though everything above was explained to Lungi. • When receiving any complaint on this issue the OBS will expect the bank to have app**** the procedures as mentioned above. Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits. Commentary from Paul: I understand we all have our stories and challenges in life, but this process with Web Africa, FNB and the Fairlands Police Station has left me feeling alone, abandoned and helpless during the most challenging time of my life. Where is Justice? Where is Compassion? Where does one read up on all the above, easily found on the internet, yet the institutions themselves disregard the “safeguards” put in place to keep us consumers/citizens at bay?
0 replies
14 months ago
Non Adherence to The Code of Banking Practice and PASA
Hello Peter, my name is Paul, A kind note to all readers and those concerned, this is quite a lengthy review/complaint against multiple parties. I find it necessary to be fully transparent and detailed to correctly encapsulate the situation on a whole. I do however encourage concerned readers to read this “article” or review fully. From the outset, I would like to flag the “ending” of this story first as it appears at the end of the document referred to below. “Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits.” I would like to highlight my circumstances and the “Distress” that this matter has caused me. I have stage 4 Colo****** Cancer and have just completed my 12th round of Chemotherapy last week thursday. One of the many side effects of my therapy and the type of cancer if have, is that I have discomfort sitting in queues, and on this particular occasion, I was dealing with quite an “upset tummy”. Furthermore, adding to the emotional state I find myself in, my dear mother passed away on the 12th of January 2025. With that in the back of your mind, lets get into matter at hand. My mother signed up / entered into an agreement with Web Africa to provide internet services to her place of residence. In August 2024 I moved in with my mother to assist in taking care of me etc. It was my contribution to my mother to pay the internet service provider. After my mother’s passing, knowing how reliant I am on internet, I swiftly moved over the debit order from my mother’s banking details to mine. I would like to add how easy this process was. Unfortunately, I was evicted from our place of residence, my mom’s house, at the end of January 2025. At this point the debit order for Web Africa had already gone off my account. With so much going on at the time, I cut my losses and parted ways with the R900 debit order for which I had absolutely no use of. After all the funeral expenses, medical expenses, moving expenses (deposits and the like), R900 is no chump change. During the second week of February 2025, my brother (the tech guru in the family) and I have a three-way telephone call with a call centre agent from Web Africa. When we explained the situation to the consultant, she indicated that she could not assist us, and that all queries of this nature must be addressed through their website. We were told that there is absolutely no one for us to talk to verbally about the matter and that the only people we were privileged to speak to are sales agents. Despite our plea, even going as far as raising POPI concerns with such a service provider dealing with us when we are not the account holder. This is why I requested to speak to a manager, to have a more in-depth conversation, we were denied and merely asked to go to the website. My brother then proceeds to go onto the website for Web Africa, and as soon as he types out a message, on what seems to be a chat bot and not an actual consultant, the system picks up his own personal profile and there are no prompts directing him to query or cancel someone else’s service etc. At this point my frustrations are really mounting during this deeply emotional and sickly time in my life. How on earth do I cancel this debit order or sort out this situation when the chat bot doesn’t work and the sales agents cant assist??? I had a Plan B in mind though to deal with the situation. I had planned to do my chemotherapy the next week (last week in present context) and then go see FNB to discuss the matter. Then today, Monday the 24th of January 2025 I went to Clear Water FNB. I am greeted by the ticketing person who asks what I am there for. I explained immediately that I want to cancel a debit order. The lady then indicated that I can lodge a dispute on a debit order over the online system, but that they cannot cancel the debit order, this would need to be done with the service provider (Web Africa). I was not entirely satisfied with this response and asked to see the branch manager. Lungi was her name. I explained the above situation to Lungi and even went as far as discussing principles of contractual law. For example, such an agreement in question will terminate upon death of the person who entered into the agreement. So even though I initially agreed to the debit order, there is no legal basis for me to be bound by or held liable for the services entered into by my mother and Web Africa. Lungi did her very best to absolve FNB from any part of this transaction. I was told to take this up with Web Africa, and that all they can do is assist me with lodging a dispute on the debit order, only after it goes off, which may or may not lead to a reversal, and that the duration of this process “Depends”. At this point I am really frustrated with the branch manager, who is in essence telling me that whether the agreement is valid or not, legal or not, that they cannot really do much. After I emphasized the *******ity of the matter (Theft, ***** or *******ion), Lungi passively indicated that I can go to the Police. Needless to say I stormed out of the bank and went straight to the police station. Fairlands Police Station was busy and after about an hour of waiting, I got to speak to a constable. I explained the whole story to the constable. The constable advised me that this is not a police / ******** matter and that all I can do is again try to take this up myself with Web Africa or to approach the Small Claims Court to issue a letter of demand. Now I am furious to say the least! The Bank can’t help me, Web Africa can’t help me, The Police cannot help me. So here I am, after doing hours of research, to bring you some objective legal reasoning to the situation. In South Africa, ***** is defined as the ******** and intentional misrepresentation of facts that causes or may cause harm to another person. It's a common law crime that includes economic crimes and dishonest acts. Elements of ***** • Misrepresentation: The deliberate distortion or falsification of the truth • ********ness: The act is against the law • Actual or potential prejudice: The act causes or may cause harm to another person • Intention: The act is done intentionally If I apply the above to my situation, would it not be reasonable for me to come to the conclusion that Web Africa is committing ***** by misleading the bank into facilitating payments that are ******** (as there is no valid agreement in place) that is causing me economic and emotional harm, and after Web Africa was technically informed, the act also seems to be intentional. Now I’m wondering if this falls within the definition of ***** and if ***** is a crime, why did the constable at the Fairlands Police Station tell me they cannot help me with this matter. In South Africa, theft is the ******** and intentional taking of another person's property without their permission. So, if the Police cannot help me with *****, perhaps the simple definition of Theft would apply. Web Africa is taking my money without my permission. Again I was left wondering why the police would not help me in a matter that may be considered theft. So I took it a step further: Can a Juristic Person or Legal Entity be held ********ly liable? Yes, a legal entity can be held ********ly liable in South Africa. This is possible under Section 332 of the ******** Procedure Act 51 of 1977. Again, I am left with a loss for words. The police cannot help me with ***** or Theft Charges, even though according to the above section, one can lay ******** charges against a Juristic Person. Then let’s take it even further, as far as FNB is concerned. https://www.derebus.org.za/doctrine-of-common-purpose-can-the-actions-of-one-accomplice-be-attribute-to-others/ “In Namane the court held that each of them is responsible for the acts committed by the others, either foreseeing the possibility that the others might perform an act in order to further their common purpose, and ‘was indifferent to such acts and their consequences’. The court indicated that the other party foresaw the possibility that the one party might commit a crime and he who did not do the actual offence, reconciled himself with that possibility, making him as liable as the one who committed the offence.” The above article leads me to think/conclude that perhaps FNB is also liable to an offence after I have alerted them to this matter, and they turned a blind eye. Regardless of my ******** aspect/allegation, my research further lead me to the below Bulletin from the Ombudsman for Banking Services. A link appears below. I found it apt to take extracts from the bulletin to further highlight how FNB clearly disregards certain aspect of the Code of Banking Practice and PASA. https://www.obssa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Bulletin-11-Debit-Orders-Final-30.01.2018.pdf • Introduction Debit order payment facilities are used by the majority of banking customers as they serve as a very convenient and useful manner of paying accounts. The vast majority of bank customers use the debit order facility daily and rarely encounter any problems. It is however when a debit order is disputed that we note from complaints received by our office that bank customers sometimes encounter problems with their bank regarding the reversal or cancellation of a debit order. Based on the complaints we receive, it has become apparent that certain bank staff members are unaware of the process to follow when dealing with a disputed debit order. This could create the impression that bank customers have no control over their accounts and are left at the mercy of ************ companies that abuse the debit order facility. We have dealt with matters where bank customers were merely told to take the matter up with the company debiting their account even though the customer has already attempted to do so. The reason why the customer eventually turned to the bank is because they either could not track down the company making the debit, or the company unjustifiably refused to assist. Therefore, it is important to educate bank customers about the debit order dispute process and to make banks aware of the types of complaints received and our approach to them. The Code of Banking Practice and the PASA (Payments Association of South Africa) rules indicate how the bank should handle a debit order dispute. This Bulletin considers the application of the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules in resolving debit order complaints. The Code of Banking Practice encourages a customer to report a debit order dispute to his bank and the bank to reverse an unauthorised debit order. In doing so, the bank is obliged to handle the debit order dispute in accordance with the applicable PASA rules. (I would to add my commentary to the above… Why is it best practice and encouraged for me to report my dispute to FNB when I am basically turned away to absolve the bank from issues that don’t concern them) • 9.4.3 Stopping a debit order You must cancel a debit order by providing written or other appropriate notification to the third party whom you authorised to make the deductions. You may also stop a future debit order payment for a given period by requesting that your bank places a stop payment instruction on your account. Your bank will advise you regarding the period for which the stop payment instruction will be effective, and how it operates. You may also be charged a fee for implementing this stop payment instruction. Commentary from Paul: I find it impossible to cancel with the service provider. Just as important, this document indicates that the bank should have the ability to place a stop payment instruction on the debit order. Why did THE branch manager not advise me of this option. • 9.4.4 Disputes about debit orders You should report any disputes relating to your debit order to your bank. In particular, you should raise a dispute when the third party: • has withdrawn an amount before the date specified in your instruction; • continues to collect a debit order that you have cancelled or is subject to a stop payment instruction; • debits your account for an incorrect amount; • has collected a debit order you did not authorise or in a manner you did not authorise (e.g. split the collection amount or consolidate several debit orders); or • has collected a debit order that is not consistent with your instruction. Your bank may request you to provide proof of identity and to confirm the dispute. If your bank determines that the debit order is not authorised by yourself, your bank may reverse the transaction and any related fees. Commentary from Paul: FNB/the branch manager was not helpful at all in adhering to PASA guidelines that encourage me to report this to the bank, when they are merely the middleman that facilitates payments, whether legal or *******, valid or invalid. • All major South African banks are members of PASA and have agreed to comply with the PASA rules and procedures regarding the processing of debit orders and dealing with debit order disputes. Commentary from Paul: Either I am completely misaligned with my understanding, OR FNB need to train their Branch Managers to be more aligned with PASA and the Ombudsman’s expectations in these situations. • In evaluating the merits of a debit order complaint, the OBS will refer to the Code of Banking Practice and the PASA rules to establish if the bank processed the debit order correctly and if it handled a disputed debit order appropriately. Commentary from Paul: In my view, the branch manager failed to handle my dispute appropriately and also failed to advise me that it is possible to place a stop order instruction. • 6. The customer’s rights 6.1 Stop payment instruction A customer can give their bank (the homing bank) a written stop payment instruction to prevent a debit order for a specific amount being processed on the account. Commentary from Paul: If this document claims it is my right to give my bank an instruction to stop payment, then clearly my rights were infringed upon by FNB / the branch manager when failing to advise me of this right or even facilitating this option. • A stop payment instruction only remains on the bank’s system for a limited period (three to six months depending on the bank). After this period, a user may again attempt to debit the account and it will be processed. It is important that clients check their statements regularly for *****ulent debits Commentary from Paul: WOW, perhaps FNB did not know this. Three months would have given me more than enough time to navigate this endless maze with Web Africa. • 6.2 Disputing a debit order A customer has the right to instruct his or her bank to reverse a disputed EFT and NAEDO debit order (AEDO only in the case of *****) if the customer declares in writing that: 1. He did not authorise the debit order in question. 2. The deduction of the debit order was in contravention with his authority. 3. He instructed the user to cancel the debit order authority. 4. He stopped payment of the debit order instruction. Commentary from Paul: FNB / The branch manager clearly do not believe I have this right even though everything above was explained to Lungi. • When receiving any complaint on this issue the OBS will expect the bank to have app**** the procedures as mentioned above. Failure to apply the procedure or delay in assisting the customer may result in a finding against the bank and a possible award for the distress and inconvenience the customer has suffered. Each case will be evaluated on its merits. Commentary from Paul: I understand we all have our stories and challenges in life, but this process with Web Africa, FNB and the Fairlands Police Station has left me feeling alone, abandoned and helpless during the most challenging time of my life. Where is Justice? Where is Compassion? Where does one read up on all the above, easily found on the internet, yet the institutions themselves disregard the “safeguards” put in place to keep us consumers/citizens at bay?
53 replies
17 months ago
A Profound and Life Changing Experience
Dear Reader, I have never been more proud and emotionally taken back by the service of a Government Institution. The Randburg Labour Department will forever been etched in my heart as a Department that I can TRUST and RELY on to provide an impeccable heart warming service. I would like to share my experience with readers in a bit more detail. I attended the Randburg Labour Department and initially lodged a complaint for assistance as I needed clarification on the process of Claiming UIF after being retrenched due to my deteriorating health. Well, here is where the MAGIC begins. Within a few days, I receive a call on my cell phone from the Randburg Labour Department. A very well spoken and polite lady introduced herself by the name of Ms Margaret Tyelbooi, THE Deputy Director: Labour Centre Operations. Margaret advised that she had received the complaint, and would like to help me as much as possible, given my health concerns. Margaret was so understanding on the phone and made me feel seen and heard. After the call I was immediately contacted by Ms Tshifhiwa Murathi, who promptly and professionally assisted me with checking my documents to advise what was still required. About a week later I personally attended a meeting at the Randburg Offices with Margaret and Tshifhiwa. I was brought to tears after my interactions with these lovely ladies. I was treated with such humility and understanding regarding my health, my experience at the Department and the personal connection I made with Margaret will forever be held close to my heart. I would like to thank the staff at the Randburg Labour Department and take my hat off to the incredible job they are doing despite the adversities and challenges being faced. To Margaret, I'm not sure if our paths will cross again, but know that I thank you more than words can explain and will always hold our interaction close to my heart on this journey I find myself on. There are powerful and influential companies out there that can learn a lot from the leadership and team under Margaret.
0 replies
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